As we mark July 4th and celebrate our nation’s independence, the state of our union is in flux. Communities of color have been hit hard by the deadly Covid-19 pandemic, a public health and economic crisis. There is a generational shift in the fight against racism and in support of police accountability. It is an election year with the presidency and the direction of country on the line. And yet, there is hope that our democracy will still prevail as we long for better days. On this special “live” edition of Life on the Margins from Town Hall Seattle, we examine the challenges and opportunities for we the people in this turbulent time. We examine the public health racial disparities revealed by the coronavirus crisis as well as a confounding political debate over wearing a mask to curb the spread of the virus. We also look at race and the Black Lives Matter movement as we come to grips with a pandemic of racism, America’s original sin.
Find the "LIVE" video version of this episode : HERE
0:00 - Town Hall Episode Introduction
1:30 - Host Introduction
7:32 - Spoken Word from Jessica Rycheal
10:30 - Conversation with Dr. Julian Perez
37:00 - Spoken Word from Naa Akua
40:20 - Conversation with Ijeoma Oluo
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Jessica Rycheal is a Multi-disciplinary Storyteller and Creative Director from Macon, Georgia. Since relocating to Seattle in 2014, Jessica has carved space for herself in the pacific northwest with a decade of experience in brand strategy and design, and a blossoming presence in the fine art space.
Her diverse body of work embraces vulnerability as an act of resistance. It asks us to challenge traditional notions of identity and belonging as she chronicles tales of healing, resilience, and her journey toward authentic selfhood.
In 2018, her exhibition “Everyday Black,” a collection of contemporary portraits affirming the humanity and brilliance of blackness, debuted at the Northwest African-American Museum. Since then, Jessica Rycheal has appeared in the Seattle Times, NPR, City Arts Magazine, Human Condition Magazine, and featured at Seattle Art Museum.
Dr. Julian Perez has been with Sea Mar since 2007. He holds a Bachelor’s degree in Zoology with a minor in Spanish from the University of Idaho, and his Doctor of Medicine degree from the University of Washington School of Medicine (2004). He completed his Family Medicine Residency with in 2007 and his Sports Medicine Fellowship in 2016 with Swedish Family Medicine at Cherry Hill, in Seattle. He is board certified in Family Medicine, Sports Medicine and Musculoskeletal Ultrasonography.
Dr. Perez’s philosophy of care is that health care is a human right for all. He believes that the work of primary care physicians is to ensure the health and well-being of the people of our country. He is an advocate for universal health care for all, and supports the community health center model as the instrument for achieving this goal.
Dr. Perez enjoys folkloric dancing with Seattle’s highly regarded professional dance group, Bailadores de Bronce. He also loves hiking, camping, road biking, international travel, ethnic festivals, gardening, and cooking.
Naa Akua, was a 2019 Citizen University Poet-in-Residence, queer poet, emcee, and Gregory Award winning actor. They are a WITS writer-in-residence at Franklin High School and a co facilitator for Young Women Empowered Y-WE Lead program. Intentionality, love, and encouragement is the focus of Akua’s work that can be found in tracks like “The Elements” or “Till It All Goes Away” from their mixtape Odd(s) Balance (on SoundCloud.com). Naa Akua was a cast member of Book-it Repertory Theater’s adaptation of T. Geronimo Johnson’s “Welcome to Braggsville”, a cast member for Theater Schmeater’s production of “Welcome to Arroyo’s”, a participant of an original boilesque ballet Earth Pearl Production called “Tailfeathers”. Naa Akua’s one person show, Akwaaba: Healing of A Queer Black Soul ran as part of Gay City’s Mosaic program and recently Earth Pearl Collectives, Sovereign Queer Black Womyn Festival. Naa Akua has also been a cast member of the groundbreaking play “Queer. Mama, Crossroads” written by Anastacia-Reneé and directed by Anastacia-Reneé and Aviona-Rodriguez Brown, Akua has also been apart of Sound Theater’s Gregory Award winning production of “Citizen, An American Lyric” written by Claudia Rankine and produced by Jay ‘O Leary. When Akua is not writing and performing they are facilitating Sound Healing sessions which focus on breathing, being in the body and meditation.
Ijeoma Oluo is a Seattle-based writer, speaker, and Internet Yeller. She’s the author of the New York Times Best-Seller So You Want to Talk about Race, published in January by Seal Press. Named one of the The Root’s 100 Most Influential African Americans in 2017, one of the Most Influential People in Seattle by Seattle Magazine, one of the 50 Most Influential Women in Seattle by Seattle Met, and winner of the of the 2018 Feminist Humanist Award by the American Humanist Society, Oluo’s work focuses primarily on issues of race and identity, feminism, social and mental health, social justice, the arts, and personal essay. Her writing has been featured in The Washington Post, NBC News, Elle Magazine, TIME, The Stranger, and the Guardian, among other outlets.
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LIVE Season Finale Produced In Partnership With :
Town Hall Seattle (https://townhallseattle.org/)
The South Seattle Emerald (https://southseattleemerald.com/)
The Seattle Channel (https://www.seattlechannel.org/)
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Executive Producer + Host // Marcus Harrison Green
Executive Producer + Host // Enrique Cerna
Executive Producer + Host // Jini Palmer
Additional Production Support Provided By // Hans Anderson & JEFFSCOTTSHAW
Music Provided By // Draze "The Hood Ain't The Same" // http://www.thedrazeexperience.com/about-draze/
- Good evening, I'm Jini Palmer and I'm the digital media manager here at Town Hall. On behalf of Town Hall, Seattle, South Seattle Emerald and Seattle Channel, it's my pleasure to welcome you to tonight's special live stream presentation. This will be the final episode in the first season of our podcast, "Life on the Margins", hosted by Marcus Harrison Green, Enrique Cerna and myself. As we get underway, I would like to acknowledge that our institution stands on the unceded traditional territory of the Coast Salish people, particularly the Duwamish. We would like to thank them for our continuing use of the natural resources of their ancestral homeland. From Town Hall, we wish to thank you for a challenging yet rewarding season. We will be on hiatus for much of July, but in the meantime, we encourage you to check out our calendar for our lineup of upcoming events next season, and to explore our extensive media library.
Tonight's presentation will be about 90 minutes, followed by a Q and A. We will select questions from those asked in the YouTube and Facebook comments. We cannot guarantee that we'll be able to address every question, but we'll try to get to as many as possible. Please keep your questions concise and in the form of a question. For viewers who want to check out this broadcast with closed captioning, we recommend viewing this stream via our YouTube page to enable real-time closed captioning, click the CC button in the bottom right corner of the video player. The video will be available for rewatching immediately following tonight's broadcast. Tonight, we are joined by spoken word artist, Jessica Rycheal and Naa Akua with special guests, Ijeoma Oluo and Dr. Julian Perez. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming "Life on the Margins." ♪ I was born in the central district, raised in the South ♪ ♪ I'm a home grown kid, yep ♪ ♪ 206 living, used to play flyers up ♪ ♪ When I lived up on Union ♪ ♪ Pushed it out to Orcas ♪ ♪ And eventually the Kenyans ♪ ♪ Didn't have much, but thanks for all we was given ♪ ♪ It was all hood ♪
- Hello and welcome from Town Hall Seattle, where we are live with the season ending episode of our podcast "Life on the Margins." I'm Enrique Cerna along with cohost Jini Palmer and Marcus Harrison Green. And we are calling this episode "We, the people" as we are about to celebrate the 4th of July, our nation's independence day. And we, the people, our democracy, our freedom are being tested like never before. We are facing two pandemics, COVID-19 and racism, our country's original sin. This evening, we tackle both of those difficult issues and we encourage you to weigh in with your questions and comments. Well, Jini and Marcus, three months since we started this podcast. And the one thing that we can say for sure is there has been a massive amount of change. We hit COVID as we started to do the podcast. And then we had the awful killing of George Floyd, which really has led to, I think, a generational shift in this country about race.
- Yeah, I mean, when we talked about this podcast, we talked about the fact that communities of color, their voices just weren't being heard. And for us, one thing that has been brought to light in all of this, with this, you know, this time of ever speeding chaos, you might say, is the fact that our media is overwhelmingly and disproportionately white. And so that means, unfortunately, that when stories about communities of color are seen, are reported on, are talked about, I mean, they are always sort of filtered in this, you know, sort of stereotypical and tragic, you know, way. And for us, what we've tried to do here on this show, and I think have done very successfully is to show that the opposite of tragedy isn't some sugary positivity necessarily, but the opposite of tragedy is nuance and complexity and multidimensionality, and quite frankly, the truth about communities of color.
- Right.
- And what those communities of color go through on a day to day basis. And for us, we always talk about this, Enrique, that you cannot write the history of this nation without the stories of communities of color. And you sure as hell cannot write the future of this nation without the stories of communities of color.
- You know, it's interesting, I had a conversation and actually, we had her as a guest, Claudia Castro Luna, who is our State Poet Laureate. And in our conversation, one of the things she said to me was that, you know, we've been writing these stories, people of color and writers like her and poets for years and generations, but people weren't listening to us and now people are listening because I think there's been a real generational shift, what's happening in our country right now. And people are waking up for the fact that we have been divided and the racial inequalities are not something that people are gonna stand up for anymore. It's hitting hard.
- Yeah. And I mean, there's, it's a complicated, so many, on so many dimensions, there are so many levels of people that are discontent with the system and the way that things are, and to hear, I truly believe, along with this podcast, that if we hear stories and perspectives from people, it'll change and shift hearts and minds, that's my hope. And once we start caring about things, people, hopefully, you know, move mountains for the things that they care about, and we have to try to like, you know, unveil the inequities and the systems that be, and try to bring light and hopefully change what our reality and our systems are.
- Yeah.
- And we can play a part in that. This is part of it, you know?
- Absolutely, and I think an important thing is the fact that look, I mean, people talk about giving voice to the voiceless. The fact is communities of color have never been voiceless. They've just been unheard. As you mentioned with Claudia and now they can be heard right now.
- I think the other thing that we are really trying to do with this podcast and also that we've been able to do, is to get to the grassroots of people that are out there doing really some amazing things. I think many people of color and many immigrants that have come to this country, they've had to deal with a lot of adversity. So, when they're hitting things now, yes, it's hard, but they've been there before, but we've been trying to dig and find those stories at the grassroots level. Or, we met Louise Rodriguez who runs the station up on Beacon Hill, has this wonderful attitude. He provides a pantry, but he's also kind of a communicator and a fellow that runs this operation there. But he's important to the community 'cause people can go to him and if they need food or if they need information, he's someone that is there for them.
- Yeah.
- We have Maria LeMark Anderson who's out there feeding the unsheltered, weekly on her own, taking food provided by these community kitchens, like Lucana, a great Filipino restaurant and giving back to this community and doing things. But I think more than anything else, we're providing a voice and a place and a platform for those community communities of color that haven't been heard before. And that's the most important thing, I think.
- Exactly.
- Yeah.
- And I would challenge anybody anywhere, you know, to find a podcast or show like this in the Northwest. They can't, it just doesn't exist, so.
- Well, we're doing it now.
- Yes
- We're doing it now. All right, now coming up, the COVID-19 pandemic and the impact on communities of color. We'll talk with Dr. Julian Perez of Sea Mar Community Health Center, but first a spoken word performance. And why don't you tell us about our artist?
- Yeah, Jessica Rycheal is a multidisciplinary storyteller and creative director from Macon, Georgia. In 2018, her exhibition, "Everyday Black," debuted at the Northwest African American Museum. Since then, Jessica Rycheal has appeared in the Seattle Times, NPR, City Arts Magazine, Human Condition Magazine, and featured at the Seattle Art Museum.
- Jessica?
- I am becoming my mother, mile high cheek bones, a tiny button nose. And these demons are all part of my inheritance. So in retrospect, I could understand how a mother would struggle to love me if she hadn't yet learned to love herself. When her crystal ball eyes could not unsee me blooming into all of the parts of herself she fought so hard to kill. It was as if all of the sudden she thought she'd buried, had only composted in her womb. And I was conceived in that same soil, feeding from my mother's bondage, like milk through crescent, moon breasts, these demons. They're not all mine. During slavery, when a child became of working age, the mother, for fear of her child being so, learned to discredit, to downplay, to bad mouth, because if master says the child is coming along, then it was only a matter of time before her child was sold. So black mothers to protect their children, learned to punish them before master could find reason to punish them in excess, out of love to spare them wrath or whip or worse. Black mothers would harden the shells around their seeds, like a protection spell. And this is how my mother loved me. A fist full of fright, poised to strike. If I strayed too far from safety, her song, a hissing serpent, her words still echo throughout decades of my memories. Like the crass cut of a whip echoes throughout a cotton field. And my dreams have become a cemetery of other people's skeletons, all singing off key, a breeding ground, ripe for coping in all the wrong ways. I was 16. 16, when I wrote my first poem about death. I didn't imagine I'd be standing here in a body that has long outgrown those 16 year old clothes, but still has not managed to shake these chains. They say pain travels through generations until someone is willing to feel it. So feel it. Feel it so you can free yourself. Feel it till you can feel yourself free, but do know the darkness will still come to tease you, tickle your eardrums with elusive tales of relief, but there is no ease in this death. It may stop the aching, but it will not break these chains. So the next time you find yourself tangled in the temptation of escape, resist. Unfold your mouth like rose petals in the eye of a hurricane and pray. No, not stained glass and alter prayers. Pray the way our ancestors did pray, till our ancestors pray, until the rain comes, pray, until our rain comes. Pray, pray.
- Thank you, Jessica. That was powerful, really powerful. We appreciate it. Unfortunately, the COVID-19 cases, as you may know, are surging in our country right now. It's bad out there people. We know the communities of color are being particularly hit hardest. The pandemic has revealed significant racial disparities, disparities that have actually been there for a long time. Now, joining us now is Dr. Julian Perez of Sea Mar Community Health Center. He is part of the COVID response for Sea Mar and welcome doctor, good to have you here.
- Good to be here.
- Glad to see that you're wearing your mask and,
- Absolutely.
- And in fact, you told us, "wear your mask today." So, we appreciate that. Let's start with that. I feel really irritated with a lot of people out there that refuse to wear a mask. In fact, that really pisses me off. Do you feel that way? I mean, you're the doctor.
- I work at a community health center. We see all people that come through the door. No questions asked. We are a social justice founded place of work. And we really encourage our patients to wear masks. We call them in advance. We remind them when we call them and we still get a few that don't. We have masks that we give them so that they can cover their mouth and nose. And even then some people can't or won't and they have the reasons. And so, we just do our best to convince them and to motivate them to do what's best for the community and us at the clinic, the clinicians that are working there to take care of them.
- So what do you say to people about wearing a mask, about the importance and what it means particularly now?
- Masks are pretty well identified now as a way to slow this virus down. The governor just gave a wonderful press conference today, and he laid out the evidence and it's evidence that comes from all over the world. We know masks work and they are not just a way to slow the virus. They are a message. They are a message to tell other people "I care about you. "I care about me. "I care about your kids and your family, "and I'm gonna wear this "because we can only do this together."
- In the community that you serve, it's largely Latino. And what is the challenge that you face in getting the word out and are people that are there listening?
- I'm going to answer that with a story. So we're family doctors, and we go into this because we love to hear people's stories. I remember in the beginning of March, when this pandemic began and we heard on the news that weekend prior to clinic opening on Monday, that this was now community spread and our medical director called us up and emailed us and said, "be ready. "You're gonna start seeing people in the clinic. "We need to identify them, test them and get them to care." At that time, the hospitals were preparing for the worst. We had outpatient settings that were being prepared for inpatient care. We had second, third and fourth string doctors getting ready to do critical care work that he'd never done before. And when the patients began coming into the clinic, this was a disease that we'd never seen before. We didn't know how to recognize it. If you come in with a cold, you come into the flu, I know what that looks like. I can see that across the room. I know what to do. We didn't know what this looked like. And if we had known then what we know now, we could have isolated so many more people, but that was just what we were dealing with. And then around April, mid-April, Public Health King County called us and said, "we have some very concerning news for you, "the Latino communities, "statistics on their infection rates is double "that of the baseline population in the state. "And we find it to be the same in King County. "What are you seeing internally?" And by then we'd been collecting statistics. And we found that our statistics were double as well. However, our baseline population is not 13% like the State of Washington. It's 47%.
- Hm.
- So, we were around 80% of all of our tests, positive where among Latino community and primarily Spanish speaking community. And so, that was a huge red flag for us. We started to work much more closely with King County Public Health. And their ask to us was "we want to know what the community has to say. "We want to hear from the community." And so, we started to partner with the community with Zoom Town Halls, trainings for the , the community health workers. They are informal people who have the trust of their community, which is another pandemic in this country. People do not trust the authorities. They do not government. They don't trust the police. We needed to find who they trust. And we went to those people who had networks, either virtually or in person and said, "come to the table, virtually with Zoom meetings. "And we're going to teach you "and train you what we know, the facts. "And then you go and train your people "and all your networks." We started that, and in addition, we own and operate two radio stations. And we started to talk on the radio stations from day one and give it the statistics and give people the best practices of wearing masks and maintaining distance and washing their hands. And we started to do radio which are, you know, like-
- They're basically
- Soap operas!
- Soap operas.
- Soap operas on the radio, right?
- Yeah, yeah.
- It was very traditional,
- Right.
- Very fun.
- Very dramatic too, you know?
- They're wonderful. And so we produced our own and the nice thing about that is that what we produce, we actually put into a public box called and anybody in the country can go and pick those up and put them on their radio station.
- Yeah.
- So, not only are we helping our own people, but we're serving the country.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. And so we found this to be helpful. I always ask the people that produce the radio stations and do the interviews with us every week, "are the people really enjoying this? Are they bored of me?" And they said, "no, you're a doctor. "And they like to hear from the doctors." And this is one of the best ways to reach out to the people because our folks are more or less labor force. They put the radio on the concrete, they hit the button and then they just work all day long in construction, cleaning hotels,
- The essential worker.
- Doing the essential work of this country. And I want, if people take nothing from this segment, know that Latinos run this country, we build this country. We work our butts off and we are part of this country. We demand and deserve the respect and the help and the resources that everybody else demands and expects and obtains. And we still do not get those resources.
- That's right, damn right. But, I've been telling them this all the time. They never listened to it. Now they do.
- So really it's like, so really it's grassroots, like the way that they communicate with one another and are able to like, you know, get that information about masks out and a way to kind of reduce this virus or?
- Yes. Yes. There's a phenomena we refer to often in medicine and in public health called social determinants of health. And it would be very similar to the structural inequalities that create, you know, disparities in health. So, we look at the overlap between Black Lives Matter and the Latino Chicano movement. We look at the law, the intersection between politics and the disease burden that we have already prior to COVID happening. And what we know is that we only can do so much within the walls of our clinic. We have to get outside the clinic and our clinic in particular, we dedicate about 13% of our entire budget to addressing the social determinants of health. And we do that with housing. We do that with political activism every year, Latino Legislative Day, we do that by running community celebrations like in Seattle. And we do Christmas parties for the kids. We give tons of presents to the kids. It's all about "confianza" and that word in Spanish means trust. If you have the trust of the population and the community, if they know that you've got their backs, if they know when they're in trouble, they can come to you, that is the most valuable thing in our community.
- The other thing I think is important to know about Sea Mar is the fact that you operate really throughout Western Washington, but also up North as well into what, Franklin County on the other side?
- We are Canada
- Yeah.
- To Oregon,
- Right.
- Mountains to sound
- Right.
- That's our operation-
- When you said, two radio stations, one is here
- Yes.
- In the Seattle area. The other one is in Granger, Washington in central Washington,
- It's an FM station.
- And a large, 47% in Yakima County.
- Right.
- Why do you think Yakima County has been so problematic?
- So Yakima County is a tough nut to crack. And I think you've got several things going on there. You've got a very conservative community and not just among the Anglo American citizen community, our Latino community there is also very conservative. Most of our people are not coming here because they're on vacation. They're coming here because they have to, there's no work at home. They're farmers traditionally, growing, but they lose their crops because of climate change. They lose the markets because of very unfair trade agreements between United States and Mexico. And they end up moving to the cities. They can't make it there. They go into non-traditional places of work, like selling things on the street. They go up to the and they can't make it. And so, they end up crossing the border and they look for work where they can send money home. Oftentimes their families are being extorted. They're being barraged by gang violence and . And so, they are here to work and send money home and bring their family here. And it's the American dream, right? I mean, come to America, make it, that's what people want. They want to be part of this country. And so in Yakima, you still have a very conservative base of Latino workers in the fields, in the meat processing factories, in the agricultural processing factories and very religious. And so, you have that baseline. They agree with the Anglos in many things. But the problem is that they're not a full part of the community. We have our folks who are working in these areas where they don't have six foot distance. They don't have masks. And the first outbreaks were identified in Tri-Cities and in the Yakima area in meatpacking plants. So what happened at the federal level? They didn't say "shut those down, send in public health, "send an OSHA, clean it up, make it safe, "reopen when you can." No, the president said "meat is important "and you're going to keep those places open "and keep operating." And so, that just goes to show you the xenophobia and the racism in that decision. We have experienced the effects of a white supremacist culture for many, many decades, since Mexican people crossed the border after the revolution of 1910 during the bracero movement in the '50s and '60s. And again, now when violence is ravaging all of Latin America and people are escaping, people really are refugees of violence. They are refugees for economic reasons. And it's important that the people that they live with understand these pressures that are driving them North to immigrate and look for a better and safer life.
- I think understanding this history is just like, as we are today, with the issues of Black Lives Matter and understanding the, what the experiences are of, of black people in this country, but brown people in this country have been there doing, putting in, and building this country. And, and this is very, very important to understand that this part, because we're still the essential workers that are keeping everything going today,
- Correct.
- From construction to feeding people every day.
- Yep.
- And that's why we are important in this society.
- Yeah, and so doctor, I want to say with so many of the Latino community sort of disproportionately on the front lines, and, you know, there were reports that in Yakima, you had a workers, farm workers, who did not want to actually get tested because they were scared that they wouldn't be able to work. I mean, what does it say about this country when you have to choose livelihood versus health?
- It's a horrible decision to make. A lot of our folks are undocumented. They work without papers, or they have work visas that are very, very fragile. And if they don't show up to work, there's someone right behind them that's ready to take their spot and they'll lose their job. And then the family doesn't eat. That is the reality of all of our patients at the clinic. We are on the Western side of the mountains, not as much farm work in our clinics that we see, at least in the King County area, but North and South, a lot of farm work. And definitely back in the Eastern side of the mountains. What I think is that we need to find ways to reach out to the community and make them the experts, make them, have them tell us what the answers are. And we've begun to do that with these trusted advocate calls, where we're looking at the community and asking them what's going on. And I term it , we know the statistics. We know that in the beginning, you know, we're 13% of the population. 26% of the disease burden is when we were notified by public health, because they were convinced that this was happening. We're up to about 44% of all the positive cases that have been collected in the State of Washington are among Latino community. So this is very concerning and the trend is going the wrong way. We need to find ways to stem this, and it's not gonna necessarily happen by people at the top making decisions. It may not even be data driven. It needs to be community driven. That's why we're reaching out to folks in these non-traditional ways, going to the folks that have the and the trust of the community and asking them "what's going on? "Why, why
- Why?
- "is this happening?" You tell us what to do. And we'll marshal the resources. Those of us who have privilege and have pull with the decision makers and the purse.
- What are you doing, in trying to reach out to the community as well, to get them to understand that, "okay, when you finish working on a weekend, "you can't just go home and have a party "and relax and call your friends over." Because I know that that's still a challenge in communicating that.
- This is a chance for everybody. If you take a look at all the states that are now in the last seven days, having the biggest spikes and the booms,
- Right.
- Florida, Texas, Arizona, California. I mean, it's not just Latinos that are having this urge to go out and party with their friends and have barbecues. This is everybody.
- Well, that's for sure, just look at the beaches in Florida.
- Yeah.
- And everywhere else.
- I want to make that clear.
- Right.
- This is not particular to Latino community.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- However, we are a very social group of people. We love to get together. I had to stay in Seattle instead of visit my mom for her birthday. In 20 years, I not missed my mom's birthday. That was a heartbreaking decision, but I did it because I love my mom. And I'm not gonna make her sick. Even though I can get a test before I leave town and head over there, I'm just not going to risk it. We need to convince people that the science is real. We need to impress upon them the importance that we are a community, even though the community at large does not want us here. That's a hard pill to swallow. Will you make the sacrifice to not visit family, to wear that mask, to keep the distance for a community that has actively hunted you down, separated you from your children and doesn't want you in their country?
- Particularly when you don't have the resources to have a different home. I mean, right? So often they're putting these conditions where you are with like eight family members, and you don't have the ability to distance and you don't, you know, you go to a work where the business and the institution doesn't provide you with the resources, right? And like, like you're saying, it is grassroots oriented. It is about trying to find the people that do have access to those resources and try to get, but it's, it still seems so, like such a huge challenge and barrier.
- Yeah, you're exactly right. You hit the nail on the head because our folks are working and living paycheck to paycheck, oftentimes they find themselves in living situations where there's not enough space. We have regularly three generations in a house, two or three families sharing a house or an apartment. And when somebody gets sick and we give them the instructions on how to distance themselves and maintain isolation, and quarantine, they really have a hard time doing that. They're not comfortable going to a hotel that the county would otherwise provide and pay for. They need to take care of their kids. Who's going to take care of their kids, right? And there's all these very real concerns. And this is not just among our undocumented workers that can't even read or write or speak English. This is our educated Latino families who have been here for two or three generations, that cultural value is still, "I'm going to stay close to my kids. "I'm not letting them out of my sight." It's very difficult to get people to make that tough decision.
- What are you doing for yourself? I just want to mention too here, before I ask you this question, for those of you that are joining us this evening, the doc is here to answer any of your questions or comments that you want to make. So, you know, send us some if you want to. Yourself, you, I imagine you see COVID patients on a daily basis. How are you taking care of yourself? What's it meant to your life as a doctor?
- Well, this been the toughest situation that we have seen, I would say. The economic recession in 2007 was really hard as well. And it was hard because the state had to cut and cut and cut because we have a state mandate, that they have to balance the budget. All of those cuts came off the back of the poor, off the backs of the poor, off the backs of the immigrants, off the backs of the minorities. And we had to fight tooth and nail just to keep some programs, just barely live on life support so that when the recession ended, we could revive them and resurrect them. This is different. In those days, it was a budget issue. People could still work. People could still mingle. People still had the resources to be able to get that social connections and get through the day. Now, our families have to isolate. They're not supposed to hang out with one another. They still have Zoom and they have phone and they have WhatsApp. They can talk with one another, but it's been very difficult for them and me too. Most of the medical workers that you have talked to, probably in some form, are trying to maintain some distance from their families. I have been sleeping in the basement for the last two months. I toss all my clothes in the washer when I get home, I haven't kissed my wife on the mouth for two months. I hugged my daughter and kiss her on the head. I mean, these are just basic things that we've had to change our lives to, to do. And it's becoming more routine. I mean, we're getting used to it now, but yeah, I mean, you have to find something to feed you. And so for me, it's been just being in the present moment, being mindful, listening to the birds in the morning when I wake up, reading, this wonderful upcoming speaker's book. So many things that I find now that I have a forced time to do that I didn't have before. And you just have to, you have to take good care yourself. I definitely came to a point when I was not doing well. And I had to identify what was the thing that did it. And I addressed that, things are better now, but I think every person who works in the front line, whether that be a grocer or a meat processor or a nurse, is going to go through this at some point. And you go through those stages of grief. You go through loss, you go through anger, you go through sadness and you get to the point where you have resolve. You know what the problem is, you know what to do and you know how to do it. And that is what drives me now.
- So, I have to ask you doctor too, with, we just had record numbers of COVID infections the last couple of days nationally, we have now, where you have COVID-19 patients being transported from Yakima to Western Washington hospitals, how concerned are you? What is the risk level that we'll see, you know, an additional spread that might have us locked back up? Excuse me, re-locked back up? And sorta like what Florida and, and we see Texas is now doing,
- Right.
- Are you scared that we will have to, you know, phase out of phase two back to phase one?
- It's always a possibility. You know, when you have tools, some of these tools are very blunt. And the governor today said that even in Yakima, even in the Tri-Cities area, they want to give them a 1.5, simply because if people don't have the grocery stores open and the gas stations and the things that they just need to get through the day and get through their weeks, they have to go to other counties and they take the virus with them. And so, allowing just a minimum amount of opening and business and services available to the community is important. But you have to convince the community, to wear their masks and to wash their hands and to stay distant from one another six feet, two meters, if you can convince the people to do that, you can do, you can be together relatively safely. I mean, just look at what the Black Lives Matter movement did in the last three, four weeks. I mean, we had hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people in the street all over this country. There have not been outbreaks associated with these massive movements of people in the street. And so, we know it can be done. We know we can live our lives if you wear this.
- Hmm. And it's convincing people just to do that. I mean, it is, I just don't get it, why people will not. It seems to be the smallest thing for us to do, to be able to get control of this virus. So Dr. Fauci, Anthony Fauci has said, and this is really tough to hear that he expects us to maybe have as many as 100,000 a day dying, that, and that, that we don't have control of this at all.
- So he's correct. We don't have control of this at all. 100,000 dead a day I think would be a apocalyptic. I think possibly what he said it was 100,000-
- I think 100,
- He said, 100,000 a day, sorry.
- Yeah,
- Thank you for the correction, yeah.
- But yes, if we, if people don't change their behaviors, we can easily get
- Right.
- To 100,000 a day. And keep in mind that people that were infected today are not going to show up in the hospitals for probably seven to 14 days ahead of time. And so this second wave is here now. Everybody needs to know that, it is here right now. We are doing really good in King County, but our numbers are going up. Washington State's numbers are going up. Our hospitalizations are flat and our death rate is still flat to going down. Why? 'Cause we learned. There's the golden silver lining, we've learned from wave one. We know who's high risk, and we know how to keep them away. We've given them the message and they got the message, okay? Now what we need to do is convince the young people, no bars, no parties, wear your mask. That is tough. And this is why, we have a young generation of people who have grown up their whole lives knowing the internet, being very resourceful on the internet, they don't trust their parents' generation because we've completely screwed up this world. We have fire season year round in some places. We have so much mistrust. We have a very divided government, polarized politics. Young people look at us as parents and as leaders of this country. And they just shake their heads and they cannot believe what's going on. And so, when you have that many young people who are now out of school, had to come back from college. Our, know that their parents are, they are paying tens of thousands of dollars to get an education online now. It is just the breaking point. And when George Floyd was killed, that was it. You had a huge group of young people that were pissed off. There you go, pissed off, and were ready to do something about it. And that's what drove this. And this country will change because this generation is committed. They are committed and they're smart and they're resourceful. And they will risk a lot to make it happen.
- But yet, they're the ones that we got to get the message out to-
- You're right.
- That don't go party. You know, I have a son who, you know, we have this constant conversation and he's learning, I think the hard way, but what's it going to take to get them to understand you, you can't do this.
- I think it's going to take a massive apology. We need to apologize to this generation and let them know when you wear a mask, you're protecting us. Let me give you a reason to protect us.
- I'm sorry, can you?
- I apologize.
- I just want to apologize.
- Apologize, yeah.
- I do, if that will help to get people to and young people to wear a mask and to really use some common sense and help us. And actually, if it helps anybody to use some common sense right now, because it just seems to me, it's the least we could do to try to help ourselves right now.
- I think we underestimate our young people. I think they're brilliant. I think they're resourceful. I think they know what they're doing. And again, just like we are reaching out to the community to find out , why? We need to reach out to young people and say, "you can fix this. We can help you. "You tell us what to do. We give you the resources. "Let's fix this problem." They are breaking down racial barriers in this country. They are forcing the conversation. They can fix this COVID crisis, but we need to ask forgiveness and step aside and let them help us figure this out.
- So that, I have to ask you. I know you said that obviously there are younger people who are trying to fix this crisis and so forth. We do have some states, shall we say, that have, and especially their governors who have acted very irresponsibly. I know there are a lot of people who are saying, "well, "even if Washington gets it right, "and the West coast gets it right, "well, there still are other states "who aren't getting it right." And the holidays will be coming up soon,
- Yes.
- The summer's coming up soon, people travel,
- Yes, yeah.
- We obviously, because of the commerce clause, we can't stop interstate travel. So how can we, you know, truly halt the spread when there are quite frankly, there's so many people who are still acting very irresponsibly around the country?
- You know, we ask our people on the radio this very same question. And they do admit that there are some irresponsible people out there. They don't believe that the virus is real or they feel like, "it's not going to happen to me." And until it happens to them and their families, that's when you see real change. And that is a hard lesson to learn. And it's very frustrating for us to wait for that to happen to some people.
- Right, and how many other people have to be sick and come ill with this virus before that happens?
- Well, ask the governor of Texas. This is a Republican governor that just told everybody, "you will wear masks." It took a lot of carnage in his state to take that step. He's now breaking from his party, he's breaking from the president's lead.
- Yeah.
- And unfortunately, well, fortunately for us now, I mean, people are starting to say, there's just, there's just, common sense it's not so common, right?
- Right.
- Yeah.
- Well, hopefully they can use that in North Dakota where on the 4th of July, they'll be, the president will be doing a event where the mayor there, excuse me, the governor there has said that masks are not required So, we should see.
- Well, I think they just need to talk to the people in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
- Let's hope that common sense becomes a pandemic at some point. Doctor, thank you so much. Thank you for what you do. And because you're putting your life on the line and doing all of this, you know, thank you to your wife and your family that are putting up with so much, but thank you for everything that you're trying to do for the Latino community, but for everybody. And thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. We really appreciate that.
- You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me.
- All right.
- Thank you to all the people that we work with. And make this possible.
- All right, thank you very much to Dr. Julian Perez for joining us. Coming up, Ijeoma Oluo, author of the best selling book, "So You Want to Talk About Race?" We do, and we will, but first another spoken word performance. Tell me about our next artist.
- Yes, it is great pleasure it gives me to introduce Naa Akua. Naa was the 2019 Citizen University Poet in Residence, queer poet emcee, and a Gregory award winning actor. And also in my eyes, a hall of fame human being, when Naa is not writing and performing, they are facilitating sound healing sessions, which focus on breathing, being in the body and meditation. There is also a rumor that Naa invented the Nike swish. I don't know if I can, you know, guarantee that or verify that, but Naa is awesome, and here Naa is. Thank you.
- The 1966 10 point program from the Black Panther Party and the definitions of freedom. We want freedom. Imagine it not costing anything that you could enjoy civil and political rights. We want decent housing, fit for shelter of human beings, that you are not judged by your nature or being , what do we want? We want education for our people that expose the true nature of this decadent American society. We want education that teaches us our true history and role in the present day society, you are able and capable to choose. You want to know what else we want? We want full employment for our people. You are relieved from lack, especially anything that is burdensome. Oh, okay, you really want to hear what we want? We want an immediate end to police brutality and the murder of black people. There are no restrictions, no system that is opposed to you. We want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice, peace, you, you are not refused, blocked or turned away by the structure of qualifications. You are not being used or occupied. You are not being hampered with or impeded. There is no bondage here. You are moving and turning in any and every direction. You are the wind that blows. You are the rain that falls. You are the birds that eat. You are the sun that shines. You are the moon that beams. You are free. You are free. You are free. Define your freedom.
- Thank you Naa. That was great. Very appropriate too as we head into this 4th of July weekend, and we're talking about freedom in many ways and talking about we the people and everything we're dealing with right now. So, we move from the COVID-19 pandemic to talk about the pandemic of racism in our country. We are fortunate to have with us author Ijeoma Oluo. She joins us for a conversation and you may have heard of her book. It's a good one. "So You Want to Talk About Race?" It's a New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller, and it's even more timely right now, as there is a strong vocal movement for change in regards to race and social justice in this country, Black Lives Matter, police accountability, and welcome Ijeoma, thank you so much for being with us. You know, after the George Floyd killing and we saw the protests and how did all of that hit you?
- I mean, I think that, you know, first and foremost, I'm a black woman. So, it hit me the way it hit a lot of black people, you know, in this country. I was devastated. You know, I was, it's not just George Floyd, right? It's not just Breonna Taylor. It's thousands and thousands
- Right.
- Of black lives over multiple generations, lost to police violence. And so, you know, we just cried a lot. My partner, you know, who is a black man, we spent a lot of time just in grief and outrage and exhaustion and you know, like everyone else. But at the same time, being someone who writes and speaks on issues of race in this country, it also means that, you know, immediately there were regular requests to comment on what was happening. So you're processing, you're grieving. Your phone is ringing constantly, and you're trying to figure out how to best utilize the attention that's on you while also trying to care for yourself as a black person, you know, as a human being. So, it's been very traumatic and activating at the same time, you know? It's been a lot and I think that anyone who does work in this fear feels very similarly.
- So, I know you're also a mother to two beautiful black boys that are, they might take exception with me calling them beautiful, but what has that conversation been like, right? I mean, just this past year, all that they've had to, all that we've had to endure, but I can only imagine being as young as they are, having to endure this.
- You know, it's been , for them, it's, I'm sad to say their life has been really shaped in recent years. A lot of their life has been shaped in recent years by white supremacy, as it has for multiple generations, but recognizing how many of their formative years really aren't actually around the Obama presidency, but around the election of Trump now, and what that meant, you know, and I'll always remember my son falling asleep at the election in 2016. And he, my younger son who was, what? Eight at the time, and he fell asleep with laptop on his chest and he had been Googling white supremacy, trying to figure out what it was and how it works because this election meant, you know, it was coming for him. It's tough, 'cause as a parent, you want to preserve their childhood and joy.
- Right.
- But you also can't shield them from the reality of the world. And at first, you know, it was interesting 'cause I think they were just more concerned for us? You know, watching what I was going through, watching what my partner was going through. You know, they were just, they didn't want us to be sad. You know? They wanted
- Yeah.
- To know that home was still going to be okay and safe. And then they started asking a lot of tough questions and I'd say some of the tougher conversations I've had around this has been with my younger son. You know, my older son, he's 18, heading off to college in about a month and is used to these conversations with me , is used to being in this world. But my 12 year old, what was interesting for him was, he was so much younger when Trayvon Martin was killed. He was so much younger when, even when Mike Brown was killed, that he didn't really see the collective outrage the way that it is now, even though it existed.
- Right.
- So, we had to have a lot of conversations about, you know, what it means when you see buildings being burned down, what does that mean when you're 12 and everything is cut and dry and you've been told that burning down a building that's not yours isn't okay? What does it mean in this context? And I would say one of the saddest parts of the conversation, you know, was my son couldn't understand, where I was saying, you know, "you're going to understand this one day, "you're going to understand what it means "to want to burn a building down one day." And he couldn't get it. And he was offended 'cause I think he thought I was saying, "you don't get it because you're not smart enough. "Or you're too little," you know? And 12 year olds are always on the lookout for that. But what I realized, what I meant was, "you haven't been let down enough, "you haven't been, you know, silenced enough. "You haven't been hurt enough "to understand how it gets to this point, but you will." And that was a really devastating moment for me to realize I had already resigned my son's to that. And that's kind of, that was kind of a shift actually for me in how I look at this moment, because it shifted my purpose. It shifted my purpose to being one of making sure that the hope and the fire that we're seeing in young people right now is protected and rewarded in a way that it wasn't for my generation, for the generation before, for generation before. So that perhaps they don't one day understand what it's like to have a lifetime of being let down, of being abused, of being unheard, that maybe the lesson they learn from this time is different than the one that so many generations before have learned. So, it's helped me, you know, realize that, maybe we can be part of a different story in this.
- And does this time feel different to you? There's so many people who say that it feels palpably different.
- You know, for a while I didn't think it did. You know, especially because I, you know, those of us who were around in 2014, 2015.
- Right.
- But when I heard Angela Davis say that she was glad that she lived long enough to see this moment, I was like, who am I to, fucking go see Angela Davis,
- Right, right.
- Who am I to be like, "Oh, well, you know, you don't know," you know?
- That's black Jesus as my mother calls her.
- Right? And so, what I realized, you know, is that every day is a possibility for it to be something different. Every protest is a possibility for it to be something different. And so, yeah, it's different if we decide it's different, right? It's different if we keep fighting, it's different if we support the young people in our movements, you know? It's different if we keep calling attention to what's happening, otherwise it won't be, yeah.
- Are you hopeful?
- I have to be. You know, this week I've spent time just interviewing young activists. So, everyday like at noon on my Instagram, I'm just talking to young people and, oh my gosh, if you want to feel hopeful, spend time with young activists. Like just, these young people who have such fire in their eyes, who aren't just, "I think I can change the world," who are like, "I am changing the world," you know? And they're so bright and they're so driven and they're so positive. Even when they're hurting, even when they've been so hurt. If you believe in black lives, you have to believe in the potential of, in the revolutionary potential of black people. And that means I can't look at these majestic, amazing young black activists and not be hopeful. How do I believe in black lives then? You know? So, you have to be hopeful. I mean, we're here, we're a miracle. You know, we are here 400 years later. We have to be hopeful.
- And does it re-inspire and reinvigorate your work? Because as, you know, we mentioned before, like the George Floyd protest happened and suddenly there's this resurgence of, your work is once again in the limelight and become that much more important. And so like, you meet these activists and you're in this position where, you know, a lot of people are listening and want to hear from you and want to know what you have to say. And like, how are you energetically? How is that like, you know, how is that resurgence affecting you? Where are you at with that?
- You know, it's... at first I was kind of bitter around it in a way, because it's definitely hard. And I think that many people will, many black people, and many indigenous people, many activists, will feel this where you're like, "oh, you could care about these things. "You could have this whole time. "You could show up at a protest. "I thought that wasn't your thing. "I thought, you know, that didn't do this "and oh, now you do? "Oh, you know, press, you could be covering these issues." And it was really, you know, tempting to stay in that space. For me, right now, you know, I'm just trying to think of where the attention, the platform I have can be leveraged to maintain momentum for the movement and to elevate younger voices and to elevate more marginalized voices than mine. I'm at the, you know, where I am now, even versus when I wrote the book, is at a place of vastly increased privilege. And that means, you know, that with each one of these, with each book, with each increase in notoriety, it becomes less about me. I will always be a black woman, which means they will always be dear to me. I will always try my best to stay accountable and stay connected, but it would be foolish of me to say that I'm at the center of this particular moment or this particular movement. And so, as long as media functions the way that it does, as long as the gate holders operate the way that they do, you know, right now I'm trying to like focus that energy and attention into uplifting other voices, into keeping people focused in supporting the movement in general, and then also, you know, trying to learn my lessons in the past of how to preserve myself a little bit, preserve some time. Once you know though your clear mission, it becomes a lot easier. You know, like once I decided that this moment was really about keeping people motivated and keeping, you know, the voices of young activists out there, then it was really easy to start turning things away that didn't fit that, you know? And I think that for anyone who's wondering, like, "can I sustain activism?" You know? And I think a lot of people are wondering, can we sustain activism right now? Can we sustain this energy? Find your place. In fact, one of the young activists, you know, where I was talking today was, I'm saying, you know, once you find your peace, find it, you know, and let that drive you. And, and what I would add to that is, let that tell you what you can let go, you know? So that you can keep going for the long haul.
- You tell the young folks that, I know, they probably want everything now, but this is a marathon?
- No, you know, because I think that every person my age tells them it's a marathon. I would rather tell them to, I am so glad that they want it to happen now, because lives are lost in the waiting. Right? So yeah, fight for it like you need it yesterday, you know? And like you expect it yesterday.
- So this is more like a Daytona 500. Where are you going as fast as you can. I mean, grant you, maybe with NASCAR, we, maybe that's a bad allegory at this point in time, but all that being said, you also talk about how during these time periods of sort of sustain momentum and sustain movements, you also need joy and you need to find a way to squeeze out joy every day. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
- Yeah, yeah. It's so important. And you know, this is something over the years that I can say I didn't used to be very good at. And at times I'm still not good at it at all, but I'm in the movement for black lives. I am fighting for black lives. Not for black survival, not for black existence, for black life. And that is bigger than just not being killed. It is about our right to thrive. And I can't say that I am fighting for black lives and not care about my black self and not care about my black family, you know, not care about other black activists. And so, it is really important, you know, what I had started saying, I used to talk, you know, before we were all at home.
- Right.
- I used to spend a lot of time at colleges and universities and predominantly white institutions. And it would always be this kind of sea of white faces and then an almost an overrepresentation of black students, you know, that were coming just to hear something and the amount of pain in their eyes as they would, it would come Q and A time. And they would ask me, "how can I give more?" Right?
- Mm-hmm.
- "I'm tired, I'm scared." You know, we're talking to 20 year olds, right? "I've been hurt, but how do I keep fighting? "How do I keep giving,
- Right.
- "How do I keep educating?" And what I realized, you know, and I think that many people have realized before me is that we've been expected to martyr ourselves for this movement, but we are fighting for our own lives as well.
- Right.
- And when I look at these babies, you know, my son is the same age. I'm going to call them babies, these babies, I wouldn't sacrifice one of them to our movement. And I would hold one of them up. That's more important than the entirety of the system of white supremacy. So, if we fundamentally believe that black people are more important than white supremacy, then that also means that we don't sacrifice black people to the battle against white supremacy, it also means that we don't frame our battle as just the battle against white supremacy.
- Right.
- Right? It's the battle for black life. And so, that means that you have to have joy. If we reconcile ourselves with the fact that white supremacy will still live after we are gone, that we will fight, but we will not be able to stamp it out in our lifetime. Then we either say, we are going to sacrifice yet another generation, or we are going to continue to fight because we are fighting for black joy, black love, black life. And that means we have to appreciate all of that as it's happening.
- Right.
- And so, I wouldn't even say it's just important. It is the end all and be all of our work. If we defeat white supremacy and we are not here at the end of it, then what have we done? If we say we defeated white supremacy and we lost multiple generations, what have we done? You know? We have to appreciate and value every moment of joy that's open to us and cultivate joy. 'Cause that's what motivates our work.
- Right.
- That's what we're fighting for. We're fighting to protect that. And so, I hope that every black person out there who's feeling very much like they're being told that we can't afford joy right now. You know? And that happens a lot, you know? And especially in times like that, this, people don't want to see black joy. They don't want to see people dancing or hugging or laughing. You know, they're like, "no, it's too serious. "Can't you see? People are dying." Yes, and that could be you. It could be me.
- Right.
- And if we didn't decide that we were worth joy in the time we have, then what are we doing? You know? And so, I hope that everybody pushes back against the messaging that we have to be martyred to this. And that there isn't anything radical about black joy because there absolutely is. And practice it, cultivate it, spend more time on that than focusing on whiteness, spend more time cultivating black joy and love and safety and healing than focusing on whiteness because we deserve more of our attention.
- I appreciate that permission. Now I do have to ask, 'cause I know people are sort of christening this moment as the great awokening, so to speak, the New York Times bestseller list is looking like an anti-racist guide, with obviously your book on top. With all that being said, and 'cause I know you interact with people online a lot, you call yourself an internet yeller. I don't know how you do it . I, you know, I want to be you when I grow up like I say, but what is it that the, what do you think is the greatest fallacy about this country that people are finally waking up to? That you've seen in these last few months?
- You know what I think what I'm seeing right now, is that, that many non-black people, I would say non-black and non-indigenous right? Because many of these issues have been hitting the indigenous community just as hard, if not harder,
- Right.
- For very long time, including police violence, are realizing is what we've always known, which is it doesn't stop. I think that when you had all of these distractions pre-COVID and all of this privilege and all of this messaging that told you you were safe and the system worked and people were really, you know, our systems were really good and really did take care of people. And there were a couple of exceptions. You could bounce from one killing to the next one that made the news. And it could feel like nothing happened between January and June, right?
- Mm-hmm.
- And now we're in a space where sports is canceled, where we can't go out to bars, where our government has been shown to be as incompetent as it always has been, where capitalism has not been able to jump in and save people in their time of need. And then people are realizing, "wait, and still cops kill people? Like, that still happens? "That's still a thing? And it's gonna happen again? "And I can't distract myself from it "and wait, they had nothing better to do and still this?"
- Right.
- And I think, you know, the comments I would hear from people were, people still would come and I would post, you know, another person that's killed, you know, they'll say, "I don't know how much more of a this I can take." Right.
- You know, what, what are you talking about? You know? And they're just realizing, "Oh, it doesn't stop." And I think that that's been the biggest thing for people is to recognize that it is unbearable. And they thought it was bearable only because they were able to step away from it, to feel removed from it.
- Right.
- And I think they're recognizing, "oh, you can't live like this.
- Hm.
- "You can't live with this trauma, with this fear, "you can't live feeling failed by all of your systems. "You can't live watching people be crushed over "and over and over and over again, "you can't live with this grief, "with this pain day in and day out and be okay." And I think that that's caused a big shift in how, especially white America, sees our protests, sees our pain. There are of course, segments in the population who I call flat Earthers, right?
- Yeah.
- They believe what they believe because it's what they want to believe, right? They are convinced the Earth is flat, if in 2020, you think the Earth is flat, I can't help you. You want to, and there are the flat Earthers of racism, who believe it doesn't exist, right? But for, what I have noticed is a shift where we're not having to explain that racism is a problem. Like we had to every other time.
- Right.
- Something like this happened we don't have to explain, like I'm getting less calls of, "can you come on the radio "and explain why black people are angry?" You know, like that part people are getting, you know ?
- Unless it's Fox News, that's not gonna happen.
- I think, yeah,
- Okay?
- But no, I mean, I would get that from contemporary, from liberal papers either. "Can you write an article about why you're so angry?"
- Wow.
- I didn't realize I had to do this, you know?
- How many words you giving me?
- Right.
- And, I don't have to say, you know, I'm getting far less requests of, "can you explain why it's bad to say all lives matter?" Like we, people have realized, "oh, we can set this aside." And I think that's an important shift because for a long time, we've been stuck in this space of like, what verbiage should we be using?
- Right.
- "How do you convince your uncle "who doesn't even think black people are people "that, you know, racism might be a problem?" You know, we've moved away from that and into "what's the best course of action?"
- But how long do you think this awokening last, right? Sports are going through to come back. Movies are going to come back. Distractions are going to come back. How do we get these newly woke people to stick around to the party? Or does it even matter at this point?
- You know, I don't, I mean, I would love to say that I know what's going to happen to our economy, but I don't. I don't think, you know, when this crisis, this coronavirus, this COVID-19 crisis started, I think we all had different, vastly different ideas of what we, where we were going to be in July.
- Right.
- Actually, when you figure that part of it out, please let me know ahead of time so I can call my broker.
- Yeah, right?
- Trust me on that.
- So, yes, I assume that one day we will find a way to bring everything back, but we don't know what it will look like. We don't know what will be lost in the meantime.
- Right.
- I assume, based on past pandemics, that yes, that we'll recover. And with that, the means to ignore what's happening if you are privileged, will come back as well. All I can hope is that a couple of things happen. One, that we get to build a new generation of activists who know, who have the structure and the experience to create lasting effective protest. And I think that that's what we're seeing being built right now. That's really promising to me.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And I think also that we will see that the people who do have to face this will feel empowered, will hopefully have enough wins, enough progress, to continually protest, right? Because people, black people have been protesting
- Right.
- Even when no one's been paying attention. So, those are kind of my hopes for this time.
- And not just protesting, but each time you learn something, right? And then it's like implementing change, trying to get it into government, getting policy, like doing, like make, taking the steps. Like every time can we get further, can push harder?
- Exactly.
- Can we make change? Can we see, you know, there's things that we want to change actually live in our world, right? In our systems, the be and like the community around us. You know?
- Yeah. And I think it's important too that we also recognize the incredibly generous and steadfast mentorship of activists who were out in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, who are reaching out, working with college students, high school students,
- Right.
- Showing them how, we're seeing that, right? We're seeing that cycle of this is how far we got, this is what we did. This is where we failed. Every time we get this opportunity, we teach each other, we grow stronger, it's important and it's helpful. And I'm hoping that we can really fast forward that, intensify that, in this time.
- Yeah.
- And actually see some of it make its way into policy and see, start seeing what works, what doesn't work, where we can press, where we can't. And then the next time we push even further, you know? We have to just take advantage of every bit that we have.
- I want to jump in with some questions that we have, that people have sent in. One question that we received is what would you like to see happen next for black people economically, politically and for racial justice in Seattle specifically?
- Well, I love how that's specifically, and also, an incredibly big question.
- Yeah, and I- They were a little broad.
- Specifically. Everything, but for here.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Can you do it in 30 seconds? No, no.
- I mean, I don't think I could. I don't think I can answer quickly that question at all, but I would definitely say, what we're seeing in this particular time right now is the need for immense investment in black community, in communities of color, here in Seattle, better safety nets, better investment, better infrastructure, better jobs, more affordable housing, better housing laws. We're also seeing the failures of our medical system and how it's impacting black and indigenous communities, especially. So we need to be addressing that, but we absolutely, absolutely, absolutely need to defund the police. Like there is no question about that. What we have seen these last few months, what we have seen these last few decades, these last few hundred years, but here in Seattle specifically, proves that the Seattle police are not a reliable partner. They are not interested in real growth or change. And honestly, our city government that supports them is not either. So, what we need right now is people willing to partner with us in serious thoughtful abolition. And this isn't rash. It's not something that happens overnight, but it's also not something we haven't thought out. It's also not something that generations of activists haven't been planning for.
- And when you say defund, define what you mean there, because you know,
- Yeah.
- People are saying, white people will freak out saying that "what? I want police, I need something here."
- Right, yeah.
- But explain.
- A couple of things. You know, what was interesting is, I was talking with the absolutely brilliant Janaya Khan, one of the co-founders of Black Lives Matter Toronto, we were talking about, what does it mean to defund the police? The first thing they brought up that I hope white people watching will consider, is most comfortably, financially comfortable, white people already live in a society that has pretty much defunded the police. They live in a society where day to day, they go through their life expecting to not encounter police. If their child has a mental health issue, they do not think "I'm going to call the police." They think "I'm going to get appropriate help." They expect that if they call any authority, someone qualified and kind will come. They expect that if their children are shoplifting because they're going through a rebellion that they will not be handcuffed, right? That they will learn a lesson. A phone call will be made and they will be grounded. They expect that if they get in fights in school, they will not be dragged off to juvenile detention. They expect that the appropriate people who care about the health and safety of their community will be empowered to be able to protect and serve. And those people are almost never police officers. That's what it looks like to defund the police. But it looks like doing that for every population. It means that when we have issues of crime, we look at what is the root cause of this crime? And we invest in that prevention. It means that when our youth are having, experiencing problems, we look at how we can protect their growth, their joy, their curiosity, and have them learn important lessons so that they can become successful, valued, members of society. It means that when we have mental health issues in our community, we look at who is most qualified to protect, to serve, to heal our community members. And almost never are those people the police. It doesn't mean that there's no one who exists if there's a shooter situation. It doesn't mean, you know, that we're trying to figure out what to do, if someone's, you know, assaulting people. It means that we recognize that we care enough about the people being impacted in these encounters to want the best people to handle the situation in that situation. And how you do that is you pull the billions of dollars that are going to police for these things they are not qualified for. And you put them where they are.
- And where they don't want to be anyway.
- Yeah and,
- Yeah.
- Where we're at right now, I mean, I hope people understand the absurdity of this, of how much we've been programmed to think we need cops for everything. If I, if my car breaks down on the side of the road, someone trained to kill is sent. If someone is having a mental health issue, and they are scared, someone's trained to kill is sent. If I am trespassing on a vacant property, someone trained to kill is sent. If I am speeding, someone trained to kill is sent, how absurd is that?
- How is that protecting the people?
- Exactly.
- At all?
- Right.
- Exactly.
- And so,
- Opposite.
- Think about like how we've been conditioned as a society to think that that's okay. To think that that's at all appropriate?
- Or acceptable. Yeah, right.
- And as we know, right, if you look at the safest neighborhoods, they aren't the heaviest surveilled, they're the neighborhoods that have the most resources.
- Yeah, and we absolutely have to recognize then that what is stopping this from happening for every neighborhood is the racist belief that black and brown neighborhoods need control, that they need to be controlled where white neighborhoods do not.
- Right.
- Because nobody right now is saying, "why don't we have more cops on every corner "of our rich white neighborhoods?"
- Yeah.
- We've got about two minutes left. One more question I wanted to get in here. You have to keep your short response, what would you say to your community in the North end? How can we better support the movement, this movement that's going on?
- You know, I spent a lot of time in North end and out there. Actually, you know, listen to the people of of color, listen to the black people, recognize that just because the numbers of black people are smaller in the North end, A, that's changing because gentrification and B, it means that we are even further disempowered in these places. And so you need to listen to the communities that are there. We saw this with the movement to block the bunker, that people of color, communities of color, black communities, absolutely care about what happens on the North end. White communities need to listen and keep prioritizing these voices. Prioritize it in your community. Don't go, "gee, you know, what's happening in Mt. Baker? "I need to go find that out." No, say "what is happening in Ballard?" "And I need to find that out "and support the black voices in Ballard." Support the black people in the neighborhood that you're in, prioritize their voices, show up at meetings, say, "this matters to me too." Make sure that they know that you are their neighbors and you consider them your neighbors.
- That their voices can be heard. Yeah. Well, that's all for this live edition of "Life on the Margins." Ijeoma, thank you so much. You know, that's probably the best explanation I have heard of defunding, trying to defund the police, that anybody's given. And I really appreciate that. We want to thank Ijeoma for being here, to give us this great conversation. And if you haven't gotten her books, "You Want to Talk About Race?" Please do so, we also want to say, thank you very much to Dr. Julian Perez for joining us this evening, and also our spoken word artists, Jessica Rycheal, and Naa Akua, great folks here at Town Hall and the Seattle Channel, to those of you that also joined us virtually, we thank you very much for joining us. Also a shout out, you want to give a shout out quickly? To our producers,
- Yeah want to give some love to our producers,
- Our podcast producers.
- Podcast producers, Jeff Shaw, and my Mac has been messing up all this show. Jeff Shaw and Haws Anderson, much love to you for putting up with all of us this season. We know we've been a lot but thank you so much.
- And our music has been provided by, oh,
- Draze .
- Draze.
- Who, I wish he could have been here, but you know?
- Yeah, well, we got him here. He's here.
- Yeah, that's true.
- Get his,
- He'll hear. He'll hear him in the room.
- Get his newest album, Guild and Blackwell, there you go James.
- Thank you very much thank you to the crew here, we really appreciate it. Thank you all. Thank you for joining us. Wear your mask, wear your mask. Wash your hands, practice social distancing, stay safe, stay healthy. Goodbye. ♪ I was born in the central district, raised in the South ♪ ♪ I'm a home grown kid, yup ♪ ♪ 206 living, we used to play flyers up ♪ ♪ When I lived up on Union ♪ ♪ Pushed it out to Orcas ♪ ♪ And eventually the Kenyans ♪ ♪ Didn't have much but thankful ♪ ♪ For all we was given ♪ ♪ It was all hood until wind and sea crept in ♪ ♪ And the blocks went naked and gentrification came ♪ ♪ Gone for Franklin, robberies ain't even the same ♪ ♪ Mark my words ♪ ♪ There gonna be white boys onto the team ♪ ♪ I don't reminisce ♪ ♪ When I drive through this hood, I feel pain ♪ ♪ I ain't proud of these new developments, South Hills shame ♪ ♪ And I ain't trying to preach at these young brothers ♪ ♪ Just spit game ♪ ♪ I guess, kids the new South end ♪ ♪ And the South end is the CD and a CD is just ♪