The May 25 killing of George Floyd, a black man, by Minneapolis police sparked outrage and protests across the nation that sees no signs of abating. If anything, the demonstrations have intensified the longstanding desire for America to address chronic and systemic racial disparities. Also needing to be addressed, is law enforcement’s accountability to communities of color. Those are issues we continue to have in our own backyard, as the family of a Tacoma man who died in police custody continues to search for answers. In this special edition, an emotional conversation Dr. Ben Danielson, pediatrician, and medical director at Odessa Brown Clinic in Seattle’s Central District, about racism as a public health threat. We also hear from the family of Manuel Ellis, who are still searching for answers three months after his death in police custody. And Matt Chan has commentary on the relationship between the Asian and Black communities.
0:16 - Episode Introduction
1:02 - Hosts Checking In
13:07 - Conversation with Dr. Ben Danielson
27:49 - The Story of Manuel Ellis
38:51 - Matt Chan's Commentary
40:52 - Host Recap
____________________________________________________________
Dr. Ben Danielson was born in Boston, was placed in and then, in his words, rescued from foster care and raised by his single mom in Washington, D.C., and rural Montana. He went on to attend Harvard University and then UW to study medicine. He completed his residency at Seattle Children’s before assuming responsibility for the Odessa Brown Children’s Clinic in 1999. Danielson runs the Odessa Brown Children’s Clinic, a pediatric care center based in the heart of Seattle’s Central District and sits on the boards of a number of organizations, including the Group Health Community Foundation, Equal Start Community Coalition, Health Coalition for Children and Youth, Children’s Alliance Public Policy Council, United Way of King County, The Washington State Health Exchange Board, and others.
Matt Chan knows that storytelling begins with the audience – an idea that has driven his 45 years of award winning success in the television industry. Chan has worked in every facet of the industry, from operating television stations to running national television series. In 1998 he started his last business Screaming Flea Productions and over 14 years grew it to national prominence. His work created hits like A&E’s HOARDERS, and landed him a spot as one of the very few people of color on the Hollywood Reporter’s Top 50 Reality Power Producers list. His newest passion is to give back to the community, training and educating new generations of citizen journalists and storytellers for the new world of media.. ____________________________________________________________
Produced In Partnership With :
Town Hall Seattle (https://townhallseattle.org/)
The South Seattle Emerald (https://southseattleemerald.com/)
_____________________________________________________________
Executive Producer + Host // Marcus Harrison Green
Executive Producer + Host // Enrique Cerna
Executive Producer + Host // Jini Palmer
Additional Production Support Provided By // Hans Anderson & JEFFSCOTTSHAW
Music Provided By // Draze "The Hood Ain't The Same" // http://www.thedrazeexperience.com/about-draze/
- [Enrique Cerna] A footnote. We recorded this episode of Life on the Margins prior to changes in recent events.
- [Crowd] I can't breathe!
- [Man On Megaphone] Louder!
- [Crowd] I can't breathe!
- [Man On Megaphone] What?
- [Crowd] I can't breathe!
- [Man On Megaphone] What?
- [Crowd] I can't breathe!
- [Man On Megaphone] What?
- [Crowd] I can't breathe!
- [Enrique] Across America and elsewhere in the world, we have witnessed intense and sometimes violent protests demanding justice for George Floyd and severe consequences for the police officers responsible for his death. And like it or not, we are having to face our racist past and present.
- [Man] We understand that even with COVID-19, as widespread as it is, there is another pandemic. That pandemic is the pandemic of racism.
- [Enrique] This is a special edition of Life on the Margins. ♪ I was born the central district ♪ ♪ Raised in the south kid ♪ ♪ I'm a homegrown kid, yep ♪ ♪ 206 living, used to play fly us up ♪ ♪ When I lived up on Union ♪ ♪ Push it out to walk us, and eventually the Kenyans ♪
- [Enrique] Welcome to this special edition of Life on the Margins. I'm Enrique Cerna. Coming up, we will talk with Dr. Ben Danielson of Seattle's Odessa Brown Clinic about racism as a public health crisis.
- [Jenny Palmer] I'm Jenny Palmer. We'll also hear commentary from community activist Matt Chan about the relationship between the Asian and black communities.
- [Marcus Harrison Green] And I'm Marcus Harrison Green. I'll bring in the story of Manuel Ellis of Tacoma and why his family is still seeking answers from law enforcement about his death. Well, you all, it is seemingly rolling chaos in these day and times. How are all of you doing?
- [Enrique] Well, I'm finding myself between being angry about what happened to George Floyd and the fact that those types of incidents continue to happen. To being glad that people are protesting. I am not glad that looters and vandals have hijacked some of, well not some but many of the protests. And that to me is appalling. You see groups of young white men who are actually taking advantage. But then I also have to say there have also been some young men of color and other people of color involved in the looting and the vandalism. Which I find just stupid. It does not accomplish anything and it takes away from what the message has been to focus on George Floyd, what happened to him, justice for him, and police accountability.
- [Jenny] Sure, but I mean, I also agree that emotions run high, you know? And it's feeling heavy. And the way that people react, it also goes to state that the sanctity of life is more precious than a piece of property.
- [Enrique] Yeah, but I also think some people have really taken advantage of this in a way that they don't care, they're not connected to the effort of finding justice for the Floyd family. And what really concerns me the most is that there could be people who really have racist intentions here. And that really, really concerns me.
- [Marcus] Right, but I mean, I think that's another, they talk about the fog of war, but I think it's also true, the fog of revolution, right? I mean, back when they had the French Revolution and the Cuban Revolution, Spanish Revolution, you had looters also and people who were disruptive and who weren't necessarily a part of the through line, if you will, or the main strand that people were trying to coalesce around in terms of change. And so while I certainly certainly wish that looting and property destruction didn't happen, at the same time it's like, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet unfortunately. And I think, while some of it is potentially drowning out some of this message, I do think that the message still is very clear in many circles. That this needs to change.
- [Jenny] Sure, and it's been happening long enough, these protests have been happening long enough, over the weekend and throughout the week that as it progresses, they continue to emphasize the fact that they want these to be peaceful protests. I think that that's definitely something that also they're trying to be more mindful of. Creating protestor safety guides, trying to raise awareness about how to protest in kind of the safest, most peaceful fashion but also recognizing that people are people and you're gonna get the outliers, the people that are gonna go just because they want violence and want to be engaged in
- [Enrique] I'm sorry, there's no excuse for it. There really is no excuse for it. Plus, the other thing that concerns me more than anything that I found outrageous is that in some communities, people of color that run businesses, small businesses, are getting hurt. In the Seattle Chinatown International District area, you saw a Chinese restaurant that has been a target there. They have, for no reason, have been hit by this stuff. So I find that very inexcusable. I'm gonna disagree with you guys on this because I just feel strongly that it sends the wrong message and it's destructive, and the people that tend to get hurt oftentimes the most, are the small businesses and again in this case, people of color. You saw that in the 92 riots after Rodney King. You've seen it elsewhere in 68 when after Dr. King died many of the black communities were hit extremely hard and only setting them back that much more. Inexcusable, and I hope police, they find out who are the folks are behind it all.
- [Marcus] And I mean, I will say Enrique, I think it is important, as you said, to sort of lift up the fact that a lot of these businesses, especially locally, are people of color-owned businesses that are getting vandalized and are seeing destruction happen. That being said, I do wanna point out as well that Sunday, after the main protest had happened in Seattle, you had a lot of community members coming together to try and help rebuild and repair. You had little black kids who were cleaning off graffiti of Asian-owned businesses. And so I do think that it's also important to highlight the goodness
- [Enrique] Oh yeah, that was very heartening.
- [Marcus] And the humanity that still continues.
- [Enrique] No I agree, in fact I went downtown and was delivering meals. I do this with a friend of mine, to deliver meals to the unsheltered. And actually we diverted ourselves and went down to where people were working to clean up in the downtown area and gave them food and water. And it was very heartening to see all of that. People from all backgrounds and all ages there helping out. So that was a nice sign of hope.
- [Marcus] You know, all of us that have lived long enough to see multiple demonstrations, multiple protests, I mean I was considerably younger when the Rodney King protests happened and there were uprisings in Los Angeles. Obviously before that you had uprisings in Detroit, and Watts, and elsewhere. And it seems like you have these demonstrations, they last for a week, a few months and then we go back to the same thing. Do you feel that this time, that this period, it is different? That maybe we can get a different epoch coming out of this? Or do you think it'll just go back? We'll look at this in 2022 and it'll just be the same thing?
- [Enrique] I hope there is a difference this time around. I do sense that people are wanting to have a hard conversation, uncomfortable conversation, about race. I'm hearing that more and more. And I'm seeing more white people that are willing to step up and say, "We need to have that conversation." Now, okay, I've seen some of this before. I don't know that it will take hold. I don't know whether it's going to be meaningful going forward. I will say this. I think that this is a marathon. In dealing with the issues of race, we're not gonna solve this overnight just like the pandemic isn't gonna go away tomorrow. So this is an issue where communities of color, along with people in the mainstream white community, they need to really say, "We need to have this uncomfortable talk." And we need to continue to press to have these conversations and press for change. But, let me also say this. There's an election in November. If you wanna make a difference, if you can vote, get out and vote.
- [Jenny] Yeah, I also think that in general, racism, it touches every aspect of our life in regards to our society and the way that it functions. And I think that to me, a lot of these protests right now are specifically focusing on police in regards to black lives. And so, because there's more of a focus here in regards to, we want to see reform in the police system, racism is a huge issue that covers so many different issue. And if we don't have a clear vision of what we want out of it, then it isn't easy for us to understand and see how to execute and how to implement these changes. But because I think that this is a little more focused on police brutality and black lives hopefully there can be some sort of tangible outcome here.
- [Enrique] Oh, I think there's gonna be focus on that. I don't think there's any doubt there's gonna be focus on that because of just some of the actions by police during the rioting. I think the bigger issue is the issue of race and racism. Which is really hard. But that's a conversation. That's like America's biggest sin. They gotta go into confession for a long time. And I'm a cafeteria Catholic, you know?
- [Marcus] Well, I wanna ask you both this 'cause I've seen it even when I'm looking at on MSNBC and sort of left of center news media outlets and when it comes to the punditry that I've seen on those stations and even in some of the independent podcasters and so forth. It seems like there's this desire to pivot away from these protests being about racism to focusing it on strictly economic class and so forth. I just wanted to get your all's opinion about that. It just seems like we can't even at times have ownership of our own protests at times when it comes to people of color.
- [Enrique] Well that's why we're here. To do what we need to do. No I'm serious, that's why we're doing what we do. If we're in a tug of war then we have to pull the other way. And yes, there are economic issues. There's no doubt about it. And let's face it, there's a pandemic still going on which we're gonna talk about more. But you know, we need to talk about race. We need to have that hard conversation. And it's gonna be uncomfortable and people need to, they need to buck up and face it. I'm gonna be 67 years old, and I've said this before, when I was a young kid --
- [Marcus] You're young Enrique.
- [Enrique] When I was younger, I thought by the time I hit my 30s and 40s, the world will really change. Well it hasn't. There's been progress, there's no doubt about that. But the fact is that the things that I faced as a kid and even in college and all those things, they are still there. Marcus, you're an African-American man. The fact is that you face it every day.
- [Marcus] Yes, yes.
- [Enrique] Driving in a car, riding in a car, walking down the street, or running. And Jenny, you too as a person of Asian descent. The fact that the people have these misconceptions about where coronavirus started and they're blaming people that are from America. So we have a lot of work to do here folks. A lot of work to do.
- [Marcus] Yeah, and I will just say that finally, just to clarify my position on some of the violence that is happening that we talked about earlier. Look, I just wanna tell people I don't tell anybody what their, what they can do, I can just speak for myself and I will say, in terms of a person who very much believes non-violence overall in the long run will work out I will just say to people that, just be wary of any conducting or engaging in any type of violence. In the sense that when these type of things happen, and then there's violence and protests and so forth, which leads usually to a crackdown by law enforcement or even martial law-esque type things, it is going to be the black people and folks of color who will be getting their heads cracked open and busted open when it comes to that.
- [Enrique] Yes, please listen to my man Marcus there. All right, let's move on.
- [Jenny] Amid the recent protests is the continuing concern about the COVID-19 pandemic. Most health officials think we will likely see an increase in coronavirus cases since so many of the people were in close contact during the protests.
- [Marcus] Among those concerned is Dr. Ben Danielson, pediatrician and medical director at the Odessa Brown Clinic in Seattle's central area. The clinic has been in operation for 50 years.
- [Enrique] About 80% of those who count on the clinic for medical, dental, and mental health services are low income and from communities of color. With the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Danielson says the clinic has come up with new approaches to help their patients. And as we spoke with the doctor, it was clear he was feeling strong emotions about the killing of George Floyd. Dr. Ben Danielson, welcome and thank you for joining us. First of all, I'd like to hear your thoughts as an African-American man and a physician about what's happening in our country and the turmoil that we're experiencing right now.
- [Dr. Danielson] You made me take a deep breath there. And I don't think I'd do justice to myself to even try to get close to answering that all that well right now, because I have to tell you there are parts of my thinking that feel pretty raw. Not always easy to access the kinds of words that I wish I could and do the honor to the difficulty of this moment. I think every time I hear words like turbulent and difficult there's some piece of that that feels like it under-counts, under-reaches the depths and the intensity of what's happening right now. As a pediatrician, when I see the eyes and the smiles and the promise and the hope of young children, any gender and any race, and especially perhaps when I see young boys of color, brown and black skin, I see this possibility to be in a place and a time that is beyond what we're experiencing today. And I also see how many things will be put in the path of that young person. How many ways in which the world around them will betray them, will betray them their possibilities, their dreams, their ideals. And yet I still see such powerful hope. I feel lucky to get my little immunization of childhood here in the clinic every day. I feel lucky to be maybe a bit of a data defier who has spent time in juvenile detention but never been in prison myself, unlike most of the people I grew up with in my neighborhood in DC. I feel fortunate to know the love and the shared power of a community that is so strong. I know I feel fortunate to have had a mom who always showed that she had faith in me and always made sure I did my best to have faith in myself. And so those are all the things that swirl and maybe 10,000 more words about 10,000 more things that come up when you ask me to frame a conversation as a black man today.
- [Enrique] I heard a remark by Reverend Carey Anderson of Seattle's First AME Church that we're facing two pandemics right now, COVID-19 and racism. Is racism a public health crisis in America right now?
- [Dr. Danielson] I would say yes right up until you said "right now." It's been a public health crisis for a long time, for generations. And I am tired of trying to use language that proves that to people because the data's been there forever. The wisdom has been there forever. The knowledge has been there forever. The acknowledgement perhaps has not. But it has been a present and important factor in our wellbeing for forever.
- [Marcus] Well as you say that, and we on this show certainly know that it's been a threat forever. Recently a couple of municipalities and counties across the country have moved to actually pass ordinances naming it as a public health threat. Now would you be favorable of that happening here in King County?
- [Dr. Danielson] I'd be extremely favorable about that. I think that's the only honest way to characterize it. If you're a public health expert like King County is and the staff there are, then there's no escaping using your own approach to knowledge, there's no escaping coming to that conclusion. What I find especially harmful and unfortunate is I do think King County and other areas have named the dangers of racism, named the impact of racism on health actually for quite a while now. And yet I feel like there are many times during this particular novel coronavirus pandemic that some thinking and decision-making actually fell back from that awareness, actually reverted to maybe a slightly prior thinking about this. Or perhaps, perhaps, words and actions are not always fully in sync. I do know many of the people in public health. And I know that to a person, in January, or December, or November of last year they would've said that racism is a public health crisis in this country. And I am not always sure in these past couple months if it has been recognized in quite the same way.
- [Jenny] Right. And I mean, with the protests and so many more people on the streets in close contact, do you think that there's gonna be an increase in COVID cases?
- [Dr. Danielson] Yes, and it doesn't put me in a judgment space in front of people who are saying, "The threat to my life from racism "feels more present, more painful, "more significant, more tangible, more powerful "than my sense of threat from this virus." I understand that feeling and the decision that goes into being in close contact with other people without masks on and things like that. There's also another painful irony in there that that might actually mean that those already most affected by both COVID and racism are actually now even more at risk of getting sick. There's just something really circular and intensifying about that potential reality as well.
- [Enrique] Doctor, what are you seeing at your clinic in regards to COVID right now? As a pediatrician, you deal with a lot of children. I'm sure parents coming in extremely concerned about their children but also their own health as well.
- [Dr. Danielson] That's a really good question. When we went back to the very beginning of March and even late February, we started redesigning our clinic. Redesigning our clinic in order to be really particularly responsive to this present pandemic but also to be responsive to how we could see the chips falling, the situation evolving for low income and communities of color like the ones that we serve. So we did some of the healthcare things that you do when you redesign. We created sort of different spaces, spaces for sick kids, spaces for well kids who need to keep up with their immunizations, otherwise we're gonna have a pertussis, whooping cough pandemic in addition to our COVID one. And other kinds of care that we needed to provide. We created a Saturday that if nobody comes to the door if they have any symptoms whatsoever, and that's the time when our youngest infants get the needed vaccines and developmental assessments that they require. We ramped up our telehealth capacity especially our mental telehealth capacity really quickly and really rolled that out. And then we also did the things that might matter more. We developed Food Brigade that has just been people delivering food to doors and to places where families can get them. We have had in the past sort of a pop-up food pantry here in the clinic and just now as of March we've just been getting bags of food out to people, just getting them to wherever they are. And we also, when that baby does come in for those immunizations and developmental checks on a Saturday, one thing that family walks away with is a bag of food. Knowing that you cannot address other issues unless you address the basics and the needs of life has been really important. We've been using some of our basic needs funds to make sure that things like a safe place to sleep, utility bill was paid, just maybe some of the small things that can add a slight deeper sense of comfort to low income communities and families that have just been not only worrying about the day to days of "Am I gonna get sick?" But the more existential "Are we gonna still sleep with a roof over our heads?" Those kinds of things. We've also been just doing simple things. We created a Phone Brigade as well. And so some of our staff just make calls to the phone numbers of the families that we serve. Not to do something fancy around healthcare or social determinantce care, but just to say hello and let people know that we're thinking about them. 'Cause we think the human connectedness that's important in this time of isolation and forces us to talk in these funny virtual ways. That we need the healing of connectedness just has to be part of the equation for everybody but perhaps especially for families who feel isolated. We've created spaces for access to care for those people that have been stamped essential. And I mean stamped essential, workers. So that their kids can still get care and that they can get the services that they need. It's those kinds of things that I think have been trying to see beyond this healthcare model that I'm so embarrassed to be stuck in still sometimes.
- [Enrique] You have to be creative and adapt.
- [Dr. Danielson] Yeah, push into that. And with that, there's so much fear still. I don't know that it's always understood just how intelligent communities are, how intelligent families are, how very, very thoughtful and smart the low income black or brown family that has had to figure out how to navigate systems very carefully for a long time, how smart they are about making decisions during the hardest times. They're not panicking, they're worried. That's because they know that they're much more at risk than other groups. They're not panicking. They are strategic, they are thoughtful, they're calculating. They know who they can trust and who they can't. And they access systems in ways that would put a person of high privilege kind of on their backs.
- [Marcus] Well Doctor, I recently actually came across a quote that said, "Trauma is something "that manifests itself through repetition." And with us belonging to black and brown communities and just seeing this bombardment of racist imagery, black and brown people dying at the hands of police brutality and so forth, I mean obviously there continues to be a lot of trauma that has accumulated in our communities. How do we heal from that collectively? I mean, you talked about the need for connectivity and healing. How do we do that now when we are, as you pointed out, social distancing and somewhat isolated?
- [Dr. Danielson] I think this question is relevant well before COVID-19 and continues to be relevant for a long time. And one point that I mean by that is that I think we've had a long-standing barrier to healing which has included some combination at least of a lack of acknowledgement, recognition of truth-telling about the true and real experience of racism across generations and those many layers of trauma that transcend one person's lifetime for sure. If I'm a nerd, get baked into the DNA for sure and that create a whole different set of potentials and risks on some levels. So that lack of acknowledgement, this honest brokering, this honest conversation about the historical impact of racism has been a barrier to healing. I also think to ask the healing question is also this fast forward past some other things that just are really valid and maybe are showing up at least in my twisted view of the world right now that grieving, lack of opportunity to fully grieve, being asked to go to healing before grieving, before acknowledgement, I think is a It's not a lie, but it's a disservice on some point. There's almost this expectation of like, "Get over it," right? Not from any one person's mouth, but from some shared and accumulated societal voice. "Get over it, move on, move forward." Without acknowledgement, without a true and honest conversation. And without the opportunity to grieve, right now we are judging different forms of people's grieving I believe, in ways that are also still in the moment preventing grieving or judging grieving or shaming grieving, and that grieving that is this buildup from hundreds of years of experience, it erupts, it comes forth, it cannot be held back. And it is not just about peaceful protest. It cannot just be about peaceful protest. 'Cause that is very comfortable at a time that we actually need to be really uncomfortable. That is very assuaging and mollifying to maybe the shared guilt that we should all be feeling for why we are where we are. It's not honest when it comes to actually the expression of grieving. It is a much more powerful feeling than maybe a peaceful protest would describe.
- [Enrique] That was Dr. Ben Danielson, pediatrician and medical director at Seattle's Odessa Brown Clinic. We thank him for joining us.
- [Jenny] I'm Jenny Palmer. You're listening to Life on the Margins. Marcus, though these protests ignited because of the police violence elsewhere, we're not immune from them in our own backyard. Can you tell us a little bit about the case of Manuel Ellis, a black man who died in Tacoma police custody last March?
- [Marcus] Yeah, so this is a story that I actually was not aware of until the family of Manuel Ellis reached out to me last week. And so basically, Manuel, he was a Tacoma man. He lived in a clean and sober living house in the Tacoma area. He was a man who was 33 years old and was attempting to get his life together. In terms of talking to his family and his friends, it seemed like he was on the right path.
- [Kimberly Mays] Manny, he worked very hard to become an asset to his community.
- [Marcus] It very much seemed like Manny was going on the right path. That's what with Kimberly Mays, who runs the clean and sober house that Manny was staying in. And she said that they went to church with Manny every single day dang near, and said that he had become really involved with his local community.
- [Kimberly] Serving elderly people, helping them move. He helped people, do things free for people. He's always helping people stay in treatment, stay in recovery. He would talk somebody out of using. And he's just a asset.
- [Marcus] And he even wrote a list of his goals down. And number one was to move to Seattle. Number two was to call his 11 year old son more often. And number three was to stay sober. He wrote that down, put it on his pillow, and then according to his landlord, left his clean and sober living space around 10:05 as he usually did to go get a snack at the 7-Eleven that was near his home. Unfortunately, Manuel never came back. What we do know is that sometime the night of March 3rd, he encountered police. The reports show that that was around 11 p.m. From there it gets fairly vague. Police say that at 12:12 a.m. the March 4th which would be the next day, he was pronounced dead. They said that he supposedly was banging on the hood of various cars. And when they encountered him and they tried to subdue him and that in the middle of that he ended up dying. And so I reached out to the medical examiner. The three causes of death was respiratory arrest, meaning that he stopped breathing. The second was hypoxia. That meant that there was no oxygen to his organs. And the third of course and the third is what led to the other two, was physical restraint. The medical examiner deemed it a homicide. The Pierce County Police are still investigating what happened between Manuel and the Tacoma Police. And his family just wants answers. It's been three months. They say that they have barely heard a peep from police. But there is an interesting development. There's a man in Tacoma who goes by the, Tacoma, you know Tacompton Files?
- [Woman] 90217.
- [Man] Nine six and AM, boy Robert Robert.
- [Marcus] He essentially records the police scanners of Tacoma Police every single day. And it so happens that between the hours that Manuel encountered the police, he had that recording. And during that recording you can hear Manuel's voice, at least according to Manual's family, say he can't breathe.
- [Woman] Unreadable.
- [Manuel] I can't breathe, I can't breathe!
- [Marcus] And then it just goes silent. And so his family right now are, they're just honestly seeking answers. They're seeking truth. As they told me, they're not anti-police whatsoever. But the fact is that the police hasn't told them anything. And they describe Manuel as this fun-loving person who wouldn't hurt a fly. And for him to in their words, for him to all the sudden come across police and turn into some raving lunatic. Essentially the police said that he, when they encountered him, he looked like he was suffering from sort of delirium that made it harder to subdue him. They just don't buy it, quite frankly. And some of his family said that they believe that the police murdered him and that he should not be dead. That he should be alive, he's left two children, an 11 year old and an 18 month year old. They're grieving. And I recently talked to Manuel's mother Marcia.
- [Marcia] I've cried for, after Manny died, I cried from March 3rd all the way, every day, all day. Every day, all day, through Mother's Day.
- [Marcus] But nobody is marching for her son right now. But his life matters just as much as anybody else's.
- [Enrique] At this point, it's Pierce County Sheriff's Department that's investigating?
- [Marcus] Yeah, so the Pierce County Sheriff's Department is investigating, but it was two Tacoma police officers who first encountered him.
- [Enrique] So they're investigating on behalf of the Tacoma police into the incident. Was there any indication or anything in the medical examiner's report that it might have been from either a strangulation or some type of sleeper hold or anything like that to explain his death?
- [Marcus] So, in talking to the medical examiner's office, I mean, they were very small c conservative in wanting to indicate what may or may not happen. But it's like when I asked him, when I asked the medical examiner, I said, "Well, you list the first cause as respiratory arrest. "And that he stopped breathing. "People don't stop breathing "spontaneously by themselves.' And he said, "Yeah, I realize that." And so eventually I got him to come around and say that yes, it was due to being physically restrained. Now, he said he couldn't go into detail on whether that was specifically strangulation or a maneuver similar to what happened with George Floyd or Gardner even in terms of police applying pressure to the neck area.
- [Enrique] And what about the officers involved?
- [Marcus] So here's the oddity of that. And this is something that his family has also been concerned about is that the Tacoma Police Department is not releasing the names of the two officers that were involved. Now, contrast that with what happened with George Floyd, and yes, I know that they were two different police departments in two different areas, but you knew I wanna say within a day all the four officers' names who were involved in that.
- [Monet Mixon] Usually when someone pulls out their phone to record a death in police custody or a murder in my eyes in police custody, usually you get your information and like all of it, in a week.
- [Marcus] So Manny's sister Monet brought up how because there isn't any video of Manny's death like there are in many of these high profile cases, it's taken months to hear back from Tacoma PD.
- [Monet] They were able to get a report, a police report, they were able to get a autopsy report.
- [Marcus] Right, the Floyd family?
- [Monet] Yeah. And it was only 24 hours. It's been 12 weeks.
- [Marcus] And the Tacoma police, has still not released the names of, I've asked if that is typical or their protocol. I talked to the officer who is investigating the case for Pierce County, Detective Byron Brockway. He said that he couldn't say or speak to why the names have not been released. The family though themselves are like, "Hey, Manuel's name has been banded about it "in the Tacoma News Tribune and other press. "How come we can't know about these officers "and know whether these officers have had "complaints in the past, whether they have had issues "or what else is going on."
- [Jenny] Right, and what has the local response been or what is his family demanding?
- [Marcus] So his family is demanding well one, just to know the names of the officers. Two, know what these officers' records are or have they had issues like this in the past. And three, they want a real detailed investigation into what happened, because they do not believe the police account quite frankly. Again, it's a man who was changing his life, had been out of trouble for some time, had literally the night of, had these goals of staying clean and sober, wanting to be a better father to his children. And then all of a sudden, so recklessly throw his life away, it just doesn't compute for them.
- [Enrique] You're gonna be continuing to follow that for the Emerald, and we'll be seeing some reporting there right?
- [Marcus] Definitely, the story should be dropping no later than June 7th.
- [Enrique] Well we'll keep our eye on that and I'm sure that they will be talking to you to find out what happened. And hopefully we'll be able to find out sometime soon. Marcus, thank you.
- [Marcus] Thank you.
- [Jenny] Our commentator Matt Chan has some thoughts about the recent protests and the relationship between the Asian and black communities.
- [Matt] This much is clear about the protests. That the violence, looting, and vandalism were committed by people intent on sparking chaos and destruction. Mayor Durkan said it was instigated and perpetrated not by the people most impacted by generations of discrimination and institutional racism, but by young, white men. Great news for white supremacy groups involved in stoking turmoil at protests across the country. Their goal is to weaponize racism and push the nation into a race war. They know that black people will ultimately be blamed for the riots because systemic racism is always in play, something every black person in America knows. As an Asian-American, I know we often looked the other way or sided with oppressors on the issues of race and equity. We enjoyed a level of racial privilege that we thought isolated us. Our education, wealth, and social standing provided us cover. It allowed us to ignore the oppression of black people until we became the targets of racism. The truth is, all Asians, immigrant or native-born, owe everything we've achieved to the blood and sacrifice black people shouldered fighting for civil rights. For too many years, we repayed this debt with indifference. For the Asians who actively fought against affirmative action in Washington State, educate yourself on the history of the country you've chosen to live in. For those who were born here, you should know better. We can't add to the division needed for white supremacists to wage their race war. There is a way forward in this battle. And it lives in our own Chinatown International District. The CID was formed because of redlining and was considered the least desirable place to live in Seattle. Asians of all cultures and black people came together to build a community. Back then, Bob Santos, Bernie Whitebear, Roberto Maestss, and Larry Gossett joined their communities, Asian, native, Latino, and black, to fight the system together for fairness and equity. The Gang of Four's legacy on social equity and the enduring institutions they built still serve communities of color today. Their message was perfectly clear. United we can't be ignored, and together we can change the system. Asian-Americans need to see the world with larger eyes and stand with black people, because we owe them more than we can ever repay for the pain and suffering they endured fighting to gain a measure of equality for all non-white people. To quote an Asian friend, "We've been misguided "for far too long, mistaken neutrality with fairness, "aversion to conflict with peace, "racism against black people for justice." As Asian-Americans, we need to fight the knee of systemic racism that holds down our black brothers and sisters each and every day.
- [Jenny] That was Matt Chan. Matt is a Seattle-area producer and the creator of the reality series Hoarders. He's an active voice in Seattle's Chinatown International District.
- [Enrique] Some final thoughts now as we close out this special edition of Life on the Margins. Well, I guess the big question is how do we move from chaos and turmoil right now? And I don't know that it's gonna clear up any time soon to be honest with you, because the lid has been blown off on the issue of race and also, more than anything, I think the issue of police accountability and police actions, their use of force. I think cities across the country are going to be under the microscope. Seattle will be even under a greater microscope now since we're already under a consent decree. But the thing I still have some hope, as difficult as everything is, I'm hopeful because of people like Dr. Ben Danielson who are there every day working with those young people and as an example and as this great role model, but also caring for that community and helping them out. I'm hopeful because of people that in the aftermath of all the looting and vandalism that happened downtown, people stepped up. They wanted to clean up the community and they wanna be there. And I'm hopeful too that we're gonna have a real, serious, uncomfortable conversation about race in America. We need to have it, we needed to have it for a long time. But we really need to have it and continue it.
- [Enrique] Now, absolutely Enrique. And I think what you said is spot on. And in terms of, anytime change has been made in this country, it's usually from people pulling and pulling other people into a new mentality and a new mindset. And even if people wanna come kicking and screaming. And I think right now, there's just no excuse to go back to the world we used to have. There's no excuse to tolerate the racism and the racial disparities that this country has had since time in memorial. I will say that this moment right now, it's also important that we try to locate joy in life and try to not give into despair. And I know that that's easy to do. We have a bombardment of news, a bombardment of imagery that is very negative. And sometimes, in the case of our president just quite frankly absurd. And at this point we have to continue to realize and recognize that life is still happening. There is still joy, there is still peace. There is still love. And we still need to access that on a daily basis while we're continuing to fight for a better world.
- [Jenny] Right, and thinking about the combined efforts of everyone, I think about the protest that happened in Salt Lake with a guy that comes out with a bow and arrow and then every, collectively, people stormed him and it's kind of these sorts of actions where we act together and in solidarity in trying to get to a better place. And I also thank you, Marcus, for covering this story. Because hopefully it uncovers the truth and there's accountability where accountability needs to be had. Just thinking about as a citizen, what I can do during this time is potentially reaching out to Black Lives Matter, Seattle King County. Looking at the protestor safety guide, looking at the local bail bond funds. There's also a NotThisTime.global if you wanna go online and look at it. It's a community organization focused on reducing fatal police shootings. So if you want to get involved, there's so many other platforms and organizations and podcasts and ways to inform yourself or get involved. And also, protests are still happening.
- [Marcus] And real quickly, I don't know if this will make the episode or not, but Enrique I gotta ask you, and thank you for bringing up about the white dude who stormed into the crowd with the machete or sword. Enrique, I know you are anti-violence and so forth in these but you had to feel good when that dude got his ass whooped? I just gotta say.
- [Enrique] Well sure! I'm glad he did, I mean hey. Frankly, I think the police should've been more active in getting some of the vandals and looters. But yeah, no, I'm like, "Yeah, go ahead, whomp on him." That's fine, hey why not? Let's face it.
- [Marcus] I say he asked for it.
- [Enrique] When I saw that guy, I was also thinking of the guy that had an AK-47 or something downtown? And whoa.
- [Jenny] Yes! And then that security officer took it from him?
- [Enrique] Well that was a young fellow that had taken it out of one of the police vehicles. But later in one of the other protests, there was a guy walking down the street with an AK-47. And I'm not sure if anybody ever took it away from him but I was thinking like, why doesn't one of his pals walk up and say, "You know, "I think we should put that one away today."
- [Marcus] Yeah, exactly.
- [Jenny] No kidding.
- [Marcus] Well, all right. I think that is going to do it for this episode.
- [Jenny] Yep, this is Life on the Margins. It's a co-production of the South Seattle Emerald and Town Hall Seattle. I'm Jenny Palmer.
- [Marcus] I'm Marcus Harrison Green. Our music is courtesy of Seattle artist Drays. And our producers are Jeff Shaw and Hans Andersen.
- [Enrique] And I'm Enrique Cerna. If you have a topic you want us to cover or you wanna give us some feedback, call and leave a message for us at 206-606-0222. Stay safe, be well, we'll talk more later. ♪ I was born the central district ♪ ♪ Raised in the south kid ♪ ♪ I'm a homegrown kid, yeah ♪ ♪ 206 living, used to play fly us up ♪ ♪ When I lived up on Union ♪ ♪ Push it out to walk us and eventually to Kenyans ♪ ♪ Didn't have much but thankful for all we was given ♪ ♪ It was our hood until weed and seed crept in ♪ ♪ And the blocks went naked when gentrification came ♪ ♪ Go all for Franklin, robberies ain't even the same ♪ ♪ Mark my words, it gon' be white boys all on the team ♪ ♪ I don't reminisce when I drive through this hood ♪ ♪ I feel pain ♪ ♪ I ain't proud of these new developments ♪ ♪ I feel shame ♪ ♪ And I ain't trying to preach at these young brothers ♪ ♪ Just spit game ♪ ♪ I get ♪ ♪ The CD and the ♪